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Katie: Hello and welcome to “The Wellness Mama Podcast.” I’m Katie from wellnessmama.com and wellnesse.com. And this episode was a really, really fun one to record. I was deeply appreciative of being able to record it and of my guest today. I’m here with Peter Crone, who has a fascinating story, and does a lot of amazing work around subconscious beliefs, past trauma, patterns that come from childhood. And since sharing some of my trauma, I’ve gotten a lot of follow-up questions related to tangible things that can help, which is why I wanted to share Peter. A little bit about his story, his mother passed away when he was seven, and his father when he was 17. And for him, this led to a fear of loss, especially in relationships, which was triggered when his first romantic relationship ended.
And he faced a lot of sleepless nights worried about this until he realized that the answer to a lot of his problems was found in three simple words, which were “I don’t know”. And in that, he realized that the nature of life is uncertain. And he went on to explore how the mind influences our lives through… And now, he does that through his work with professional athletes, entertainers, all kinds of global organizations. And I really was excited to have him on today to challenge some of those subconscious patterns that express in our adult lives. And also, to really delve into being conscious of our language, and our patterns in interactions with our children so that perhaps they can enter adult life with fewer of these patterns to begin with.
Fascinating interview, starting with a story of how he was rear-ended by a drunk driver and ended up changing this man’s life, all the way to how childhood experiences can lead to physical health problems. We touch on topics like uncertainty, imagination, happiness, so much more. Really, really fascinating episode. He’s so well-spoken, and I think you will really, really enjoy with this one. So with that, let’s join Peter. Peter, welcome. Thanks for being here.
Peter: Thank you so much for having me. Nice to connect.
Katie: I am very excited to chat with you. I think ever since sharing kind of my own inner emotional journey recently, I’ve gotten a lot of questions related to that, and I think you’re gonna have some wonderful insight today. And before we jump into the specifics of that, I have a note in my show notes that you were once rear-ended by someone, and followed him, and pulled him over, and he was drunk. And then you actually…seems like a really cool story of how that played out. I think it also speaks to your personality. So can you tell us a little bit about that story?
Peter: I can, that was a while ago, but it was actually a very touching story. I was actually on my way to a date and I was running a little bit late. And I don’t know how it happened, but I was just on the 405 in L.A., and I missed my exit. And I’m somebody who loves to honor my word. And certainly, if I’m on the way to meet a date, I wanna respect time. And so, I missed my exit, went to the next one, turned around. And so, now I’m a little bit heavier with the right foot trying to make up time, and I’m probably doing about 85, which I don’t advise for the kids at home, but I wanted to try and get my date on time. And out of nowhere, I just suddenly get rear-ended. So the fact that a car has gone into the back of me obviously means that they’ve got to be doing a serious speed. Sorry, my landline never rings. Anyway, so I don’t know, is that obnoxiously annoying? Is that okay? Okay.
So, anyway, as I said, I’m doing 85 because I’m trying to make up time. And then the fact that I get rear-ended, clearly, he’s got to be doing more. So I’m like, act like not what you expect on the highway. So I’d, obviously, check my rearview mirror. Fortunately, it just kind of nudged me forward, but that was about it. And then he suddenly comes around the side of me and takes off. And, you know, I’ve got a lot of horsepower in my car. You can’t just hit someone and take off. So I follow him. He tries to get off at the next exit, which fortunately, was my exit. And he’s trying to get past cars. And there’s a little bit of a chase. But fortunately, he then pulled in the very first next turn, which was just like some deli, and was in the parking lot. And I made a point of getting out of the car very quickly. So I was first so he could hear my voice. You never know in L.A., like, who’s packing heat, and, like, the guy just hit me, you know, so he doesn’t know what I’m gonna say.
So I just immediately tried to just sort of disarm the situation by saying, “Hey, everything’s okay. My name is Peter.” And so, he got out and we started chatting. I said, “Hey, dude, are you okay?” And he said, “Yeah.” And he said, “You know, I’m sorry.” I said, “You can’t just hit people and take off, you know, let’s just check the back of my car.” Fortunately, there really wasn’t too much damage. And I said, “We got to trade insurance.” And then at that point, I could tell, you know, he was a little bit not quite with it. I said, “Have you been drinking?” And he said, “Yeah.” And I said, “Okay, can you get someone to come and pick you up? I can’t let you get back in the car.” And so, he called his wife and we’re trading papers. And as he’s pulling out his insurance from his wallet, a ring falls out. And hits the ground, and he’s, you know, scrambling to try and find out. I said, “Is that your wedding band?” He’s like, “Yeah.” And then, I could see him sort of look solemn. And he’s like, you know, he said, Things aren’t going well right now.” And I said, “I’m sorry to hear that.”
And, anyway, we go chatting. And I said, “Look, can you please call me and let me know that you got home safe later?” So, he did, you know, I was on my date, whatever. And, you know, he’s just so appreciative. He’s like, “I don’t know who you are. You’re like a guardian angel.” He said, like, “You know, someone else would have arrested me or call the police.” And he could be in jail, because he’s, you know, DUI. And so, anyway, we met actually a week later for lunch. And, you know, just so I could support him, and he was telling me like, he’s drinking about 70 units of beer a week, you know, so like, 10 beers every day. And he was just coming back from a Super Bowl party in Vegas but he was nervous because he had to get to work, and things aren’t good with his…you know, it’s just a lot of stuff going on.
So, yeah, it was just a very touching story because I helped him to see, you know, why he was drinking and, obviously, that wasn’t supporting his dreams and desires. And he and his wife got back together. They ended up buying a house and he quit drinking. So, you know, I don’t suggest people to do that. Like, I’m a bit of an anomaly in my ability to help people, but for me, it was a very obviously gratifying story.
Katie: That’s so beautiful, and I love…because of your perspective in that situation. Someone actually recently asked me if you had to get hit, like, if your car was gonna get hit, would you rather be a friend or a complete stranger? And my first instinct was I think I’d rather a complete stranger because many of us leave childhood with maybe having gotten in trouble for making mistakes and, like, that would be very severely potentially triggered in a situation like that if someone hits you, and I’m like, what a beautiful opportunity to show someone love because they would have been in this emotional state. And obviously not an ideal situation, you don’t ever want your car to get hit, but I love that you did that. And you were able to help someone and show love in a situation when many people would have reacted with just anger. And like I said, I think that speaks to your personality and is certainly illuminating of your life work, which is what we’re here to chat about today. So, to start broad and kind of dial down from there, you talk a lot about freedom, and we’re gonna get into that concept. But what are some of the blocks, the things that keep us from having freedom in our life, and maybe as part of that a definition of what you view as freedom?
Peter: Gosh, there’s so many blocks, but I mean, predominantly, without sounding too esoteric or philosophical, the main thing that blocks freedom is who you think you are, right? So the persona, the personality, the identity, people are basically constructs of language based on what they’ve inherited over time, what they heard mom or dad say, and what teachers said, and you can’t do this, and you’re not that, and before you know it, you’re an accumulation of all of these different narratives that become the constraint to the freedom that I assert you naturally are. So it really is…you know, one of my jokes I tell people, I don’t help the person, I get rid of the person. You know, which doesn’t sound too compassionate, but it’s the greatest gift I can give anyone is to…you know, that quintessential, how do I get out of my own way? So that’s really the main obstacle to freedom is the fact that you think you’re someone and that someone you think you are is a compilation of limitations and constraints.
Katie: That’s such an interesting concept. And I’m curious where those come from. Like, I can think in my own life of, obviously, some of those seem to come from, like you said, parental expectation. But it seems like my own journey the last couple of years is realizing how much at least I didn’t know for a very long time and still am learning who I actually am, and where I’m actually going. It seems like we enter adulthood often with a picture in our head of what our life is supposed to look like that maybe we didn’t really form. I think maybe we didn’t get to paint that picture often. But can you speak more to the roots of some of these and where these originally come from?
Peter: Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, everything stems from childhood, but there’s a subtle distinction, subtle but profound, which is, you know, people are under the impression it’s because of what mom did, or dad said, or what a high school teacher, you know, in terms of berating someone at school, that event is the cause of someone’s constraint, right? That’s traditional psychiatry, or psychology, or when someone is helping us, even life coaches and therapists listen to someone’s story and go, “Oh, well, yes, it’s because, you know, your dad said, blah, blah, blah, and that’s why you think you’re not good enough,” right? It’s sort of a very cause and effect, simplistic way, I think, of trying to reconcile why somebody has these deeper fears and insecurities.
The way I look at it, which I assert is one of the distinguishing parts about my work, is that actually those constraints were there already. So this is where it becomes a little bit more esoteric, but I’m asserting that we arrive as these spiritual beings and we are confined by these beliefs of inadequacy, and security, or scarcity. And then life is simply the catalyst to trigger them, to turn them on so that then they become, you know, active versus dormant. So it looks like, yes, because my mum favored my older sibling and gave them a lot more attention that therefore I felt I wasn’t as special. And then there was the compensation for that of being a people pleaser or going, you know, to work too hard to become a perfectionist, always trying to garner, you know, the love and affection that I never got when my oldest sibling got.
But I would say it’s not because mom gave the extra attention to the sibling, it’s really that, yes, that may have been happening, but you curated that so that you could look at what you arrived with, which is the deepest seeding belief for you weren’t as valuable. So that’s where life to me is that gift that will expose where we’re actually confined. So, it is in the formative years, but not in the manner that most people interpret.
Katie: Can you share may be an example of your own life? I know from your bio that you lost both parents at a pretty young age. Can you share maybe how that impacted you? And maybe also some of the common ones that you see, you’ve worked with so many people, but some of these common constraints that come up?
Peter: Yes, I mean, even the way you phrased the question, right? Like, you said that I lost my parents. So that was the constraint, to begin with, is I overheard or heard over and over equally people saying, “I’m so sorry for your loss.” And, “Oh no, you know, that’s awful to lose your parents so young.” And that constant narrative bought into the idea that I lost something. So that was one of my personal obstacles and constraints to reconcile and overcome was the illusion of loss, right? I didn’t lose my parents. I wasn’t in a shopping mall and couldn’t find them. They died, right? And that may sound kind of cold and callous, but it’s not. It’s like, I adore my parents, I love my parents, I missed my parents, and I didn’t lose them. Because if we subscribe to the conversation that we’ve lost something, then what does that say about us is that now I’m missing something. I’m incomplete, right? So then there’s gonna be all the compensatory patterns of, “Well, I’ve got to do more to overcome the feeling that deep down I’m missing something.” Right? That’s the illusion.
So, for many years, to answer your question, that was something that really bugged me, you know, like, in a way that I didn’t even know, it was so ingrained that the first time I met this girl who I thought I fell in love with, as best as I knew what love was, you know, in your mid-20s, which is, most people don’t know what love is in their mid-50s. But anyway, that’s a totally different conversation. But anyway, so, you know, as soon as I met this girl that I thought was, “potentially the one,” not that I ever assigned that kind of audacious title to her, but, you know, it was a special connection. Then, of course, my survival mechanisms of asking, you know, subconsciously, for me to do everything I could to make sure she doesn’t leave me, aka I was fearing her loss, meaning going, you know, then that became fulfilled on, but really, you know, it was just my old deep-seated pattern that hadn’t yet been reconciled. So once I saw that I never lost anything…it’s impossible to lose anything, right? Like, things come and go, certainly in the manifest world. And as it related to my parents, that was clearly their souls’ journey, and equally my soul’s journey to have to experience that. So, that was one of my personal ones.
As it relates to common ones, I mean, the most common one that everyone can relate to is the feeling of not being enough, you know, not good enough, not young enough, not thin enough, not rich enough, not pretty enough, not tall enough, like, whatever it is, right, that whole realm of not-enoughness, you know, that’s a real epidemic, you know, versus whatever, the BS that we’re finding right now. So, you know, people are living in that world of, like, real feeling of inadequacy, and it’s debilitating for some people, and it can manifest in different ways, you know, either we compensate and have the survival mechanism of becoming a people pleaser, or a perfectionist is one way to try and overcome it, or people can go right into it, which is where oftentimes they will just be…you know, they will completely debilitate themselves and ruin their lives through drugs and addiction, and maybe end up homeless.
Ironically, the same core belief is at the center of both personalities. One is compensating and becoming a perfectionist and looks great on the surface, and one bought right into it and ends up on the streets. But from my perspective, even though to the, you know, layperson, they look at someone who’s taking care of themselves, they do well at work, they make money, they’ve got a nice house, they’re like, well, clearly, they’re doing better than a homeless person. That’s the appearance, but I would say energetically, they’re both still being run by this deep-seated feeling of inadequacy. So, as it relates to the last part of your question, what is freedom? Freedom is the absence of all of that, you know, where there truly is nothing that you are bound by, you’re tapped into your own infinite nature.
Katie: I think you’re right. That’s probably an almost universal…of course, I’m projecting because it was my experience, and I’m happy to be as transparent as is helpful in this podcast. I know, I went in the people-pleasing direction, and that achievement, like, direction and had to make perfect grades, and be in every club and achieve, and that’s how I expressed that. And in many ways, this is something I’m still learning. But when people come to you, it sounds like this is one that you encounter a lot in people, what are some of the steps to begin unpacking that? Because it seems like these would be things potentially rooted deep in the subconscious. It’s not like we’re consciously understanding those patterns. So how do you help people start to understand and what are the steps of that look like?
Peter: So I think, you know, first of all, like you said, you just got to have a certain degree of self-reflections about the look at yourself and be responsible for the fact that, “Wow, that really is something that drives me.” And it may manifest in different ways, right? Someone might be exhausted that could even lead to physiological imbalances, like Hashimoto disease, or their adrenals are shot. But really, it’s still stemming from this feeling of inadequacy that then you’re always trying to compensate for, so people are just absolutely, you know, driving themselves into the ground. So, you know, it may not be…like you said, you’re not walking around introducing yourself, and say, “Hi, my name is Katie. I’m not good enough.” But, you know, it might be, “I’m Katie and, you know, how can I make sure that it looks like I’m really paying attention?” And like, that may be one of the mechanisms you use that looks like you’re doing a good job and you’re being a good girl, right, which is like one of the ways that, as children, we obviously wanna make sure that we don’t be perceived as not enough.
So, it’s first of all recognizing what are the behavioral adaptations so that you can be responsible for that? And then we wanna reverse engineer and go, okay, well, if we were to look at it objectively, what kind of person would adopt that behavior, right? So you can almost look at it okay, well, if you’re looking at yourself as a people pleaser, what must that person think about themselves if they feel the need to be a people pleaser, right? Because it’s a compensation. It takes a lot of energy, but what I call efforting, people are always efforting. They’re grinding, right? But the grind is the mechanism by which we’re trying to overcome what we already believe about ourselves, which is why fundamentally it becomes futile. Because if you think you’re not enough, and then one of the ways that you adapt to that is being a people pleaser, then what you’re actually doing is you’re just reinforcing the fact that you’re not enough, right? So you’re not going anywhere. So that’s the first thing for you to recognize.
And then part of this, sort of, proprietary method of my work is that I will ask people to investigate the validity of that, right? Once they can start to see what is that subconscious constraint, then we’ll bury down and I’ll literally say, like, if I were to cut you open, am I gonna find, you know, a label inside of you that says, “Katie, she’s not good enough?” I mean, it becomes preposterous, and people are like, “Well, no,” and I’m like, “Great. So now you can start to see it’s not an actual truth.” And if it’s not an absolute truth, then yes, it’s nice to find the evidence of where did it start? Well, dad said this, mom did that, my sibling did this, an ex-boyfriend said blah, blah, blah, whatever, there’s gonna be all of the usual suspects that reinforce that view of yourself. But then we can see the fact that it’s not an absolute truth.
And so, then my work is about dissolution. So in the absence of that feeling of not being enough, and that belief that you’re not enough, how would you feel? Now, everybody immediately is like, “Oh, my God. God, I feel so relaxed. I feel free.” I’m like, there you go, that’s my product, right? So I don’t solve problems, I dissolve problems is what I tell people. So it’s removing the constraint by recognizing the contributing factors to it, seeing the absolute falsehood of it, and then discovering what would become available to you when you see that that’s not a truth, and it’s not who you are. It’s, you know, the ultimate liberation.
Katie: Do you ever find people who, kind of, maybe want to hold on to that, even when they start logically understanding? Because I’ve always also thought, you know, that idea of having is evidence of wanting, even if it’s in a subconscious level, and our subconscious does these things to protect us. Our subconscious isn’t trying to harm us. These are…like you said, you’re compensating, but it’s for a reason. Do you find people ever run into trouble letting go of that, even once they understand it?
Peter: A hundred percent. I mean, it just depends, there are multiple factors, you know, so someone’s readiness, you know, in terms of like, letting go of something, it seems completely nonsensical, but one of the main priorities of the ego or this idea of ourselves as to be right, right? So to your point, people are holding on to it not because they want to but really they don’t know who they would be without it, right? It sort of defines people, the woe is me. And when people say, “Oh, it’s too good to be true,” or, “That never happens to me,” like, these aren’t things they really want. They don’t want the guy to not pick them, or they don’t want their, you know, colleague to get the promotion and they don’t, but it helps them to reinforce their own narrative of inadequacy. And that’s where it becomes really insidious and so defeating is that the ego is actually more committed to being right than being fulfilled, right? This is the madness of my work that I’ve seen over the decades is like, wow, you know, people are actually fighting for their limitations.
Now, by virtue of my work and how precise I can be when I work with people, there may be a little bit of resistance at the beginning, but, you know, they’re coming to work with me, they usually are pretty ready to get over it, they’re exhausted, their life doesn’t work, they’re unfulfilled, they’ve got sickness, their relationships don’t work, you know, there’s a myriad of things that lead them feeling completely unsatisfied that has led them to work with me or seek my courses or whatever. And so, that’s where people are ready to let go.
The other thing that becomes tricky is age, you know, because the older somebody becomes, the more ingrained those neural networks are, right, so the more defined someone’s character is. If you look at a child, and as a mother of six, you obviously look at children every day, but, you know, they can get themselves into all sorts of incredible positions on the floor, right? While they’re playing, you know, whatever they’re doing, like they’re just like, so nimble, they’re so flexible. And to me, that is sort of a direct correlation of the fact that mentally and emotionally they’re very available, which is, of course, why kids are very gullible, which is equally why I think what’s going on in the world right now is pretty abhorrent in the way that children are being treated, you know, the whole masks and now they’re trying to inject them with toxins and blah, blah, blah.
But when you get to the point of seeing somebody who’s a lot older than what happens physiologically, you start to see the rigidity kick in, right? Like, especially when you get to the 60s, 70s, 80s, you start to see the poor posture, which is really an adaptive sitting position, right? So they got tight hamstrings, and tight flexors, and tight chest where everything starts to be, you know, concaved forward. And equally, psychologically, they tend to be pretty stubborn. Like, so we can start to see, wow, that’s interesting, there’s a real correlation between mind and body in terms of like somebody’s freedom and flexibility.
So that’s the other component I have to consider and factor in is like, when I’m working with someone who’s in their 20s, and 30s, you know, there’s gonna be a certain degree of more mobility in the way that they can start to become a different person. When I’m sitting down within an executive or a multi-billionaire who’s in his late 60s, there’s gonna probably be a little bit more resistance, you know, because they know what they know, and they’ve proved it over years, even if what they know is completely deleterious to their life, you know, it’s still what they wanna fight for. So those are the predominant factors, yeah.
Katie: And it does seem you’re right. I think those things can become part of our identity. Speaking from experience, I used to have Hashimoto’s, and don’t now, but when I did, it was part of my identity. And I spoke about it a lot and I kind of integrated that as a part of me. And I think there’s also that human desire to be right. And that’s fascinating that you brought that up as well. You mentioned a couple ways that, obviously, past interactions can inform our future interactions as well. And is there a distinction in your work between maybe more of those childhood patterns that we wouldn’t think of as trauma necessarily, or if we did think of them as like little t trauma, versus working with people who have an acute identified big T type of trauma and how that plays out?
Peter: The distinction between the two of like little t and big T? That’s the question?
Katie: Yeah, and how those…do they work out differently in your work? Or are they kind of a similar process?
Peter: Got it. The process is the same, right? The degree to which somebody maybe needs to be held, or loved, or seen can vary, right? So the extent to which the trauma is we could say, you know, using your term capital T, like it’s sexual abuse, it’s physical abuse, is oftentimes simply the degree to which it becomes more believable for that person, right? Whatever it is, they’re believing that I’m worthless, right? Now, somebody with a small t may still have the distinction, I’m worthless, but it was more in their neighborhood, maybe they were one of the poorer families. So they weren’t being hit, they weren’t being sexually abused, but their kids got all the fancy toys and the nice bikes and, you know, this particular person dealing with a feeling of worthlessness got the hand me down bike, you know, from an older brother or something.
So the mechanism is the same, the degree to which the belief is ingrained is different. So if there’s a capital T, there tends to have to be a little bit more of a visceral experience with the work, meaning, there may truly be some sobbing, like, not like…the person with little t might have shed a tear and go, “Oh, my God, I’ve done that for 40 years.” And they start to, you know, just audit their life and realize how many opportunities they’ve let go or relationships that didn’t work because they didn’t allow themselves to be valued by people, you know, and that can be sad, and they might shed a tear, and have some remorse for their life, even though that’s not their fault, right? This is all subconscious. So there’s no guilt or shame around it.
Conversely, the person has had real trauma, you know, it would benefit them in the healing process beyond the psychological understanding, which is what I teach them, invariably, there is a much bigger release, right? There could be body shakes, they might be nauseous, they might actually find that, you know, they just feel like they don’t wanna go out for a few days. Like, there’s a little bit more to process on the physical level too. So that’s usually the big difference that I see.
Katie: Got it. And in my research of your work, I’ve seen you talk about the first step of the healing process is acceptance. Can you elaborate on that and kind of how you work with people in that, in learning acceptance? I would guess, even alone, that might be a thing that’s potentially tough for some people.
Peter: Very tough, you know, especially even in language, you hear people say, “I shouldn’t have done that,” or, “They shouldn’t have done this.” And the same way that we use linguistics, there’s this sort of energy of judgment as though things, from our perspective, you know, were wrong, right? And I’m not denying that there are some things in the world right now that I certainly don’t condone. There’s a lot of vile behaviors, but to subjectively say that shouldn’t have happened or I shouldn’t have done that, then what happens is now we’re in this position of resistance to life. So wherever there’s resistance in life, there is going to be suffering. That is an inextricable connection. So if someone doesn’t get to the place of acceptance, and that’s why I’m saying the first position, the first place to start, certainly in any, like, profound healing is you just got to accept where you’re at and what’s happened.
When people don’t complete or, like, fully allow their history to be the way it is, then they’re carrying that conceptual baggage, right? It’s like, “Oh, well, that shouldn’t have happened, and that was terrible, and my mom and this, and my dad and that, my ex-husband or my ex-wife,” da, da, da, you know, now you’re actually in conflict with your history. And there’s no reconciliation from that because guess why? You can’t change it, right? Like, history is history. Everybody’s past is the way it is. That’s why one of my most common quotes that will be, you know, in my upcoming book that will eventually come out at some point, but, you know, there are a lot of people kindly share on the social media platforms is I say, “What happened happened, and couldn’t have happened any other way because it didn’t.” You know, and that’s become one of my most popular quotes because people find so much relief from it realizing that they equally have had some sort of judgment about their history, and they were in, you know, non-acceptance.
If you don’t accept where you are, then, you know, there’s nowhere else to go because you’re still holding onto something. So that’s why acceptance is pivotal. And yes, it’s not easy. I mean, because like you said, even for yourself, Hashimoto’s, you were somewhat defined by it, whatever it gave you as some sort of payoff, right? You got a little extra attention, you had a little bit of a get out of jail free card because you could use your fatigue as an excuse for things and, you know, human egos are slippery, they’ll come up with all sorts of justifications, right? So, but until such time you accepted and then become responsible for the circumstances of your life, there’s no power to move forward with anything else.
Katie: And you mentioned the word judgment. And that seems to be a thing that comes up also for a lot of people, the fear of judgment, or the feeling of judgment from other people and how they played that out in their lives. How do you handle that with people that you work with?
Peter: Quite simply, I say no one’s ever judging you apart from yourself. They’re just saying something, right? So, you know, again, I try to simplify things so that people really get it, and it’s very liberating when you realize that, you know, the only person that’s actually been judging you in the form of harm is yourself, right? Again, one of my quotes, I write in quotes, again, these will, you know, be in my book, I say that, “Other people’s words can only hurt you if you already believe them.” So it’s not that I enjoy judgment. It’s not that I want people to say Peter Crone this and that in some sort of, you know, malicious or hostile way. It’s obviously much nicer to hear people say nice things and have beautiful, loving energy, which I try to promote for people to be kind and respectful. But even if someone were to say something derogatory, it’s not that I wouldn’t look at it and take some ownership, you know, maybe I did do something that offended someone, in which case I can be responsible and apologize, but I’m not gonna take it on like that’s who I am. There’s no self-judgment, I’m human, and I embrace my humanity. I’m doing the best I can. I’m not perfect, and I’m okay with that.
Katie: I love that reframe. And I also read, you talk a lot about uncertainty. And for me with big T trauma, and a feeling of helplessness, one of the things I, like, reacted to strongly for a long time was uncertainty. And I built all these elaborate systems to not have to feel helpless and not have to feel uncertainty. And I love that you talk about how to find freedom in uncertainty. So can you go a little deeper on that and explain what you mean by that?
Peter: Yeah, I mean, even in what you just shared, which obviously isn’t much, and I don’t know the details of why you felt the need to try and control that, but I can guess, right? So I would say that that lives in the world of where there’s this absence of security, right, a deep feeling. So that if we were to take you back and, you know, walk down memory lane and look at your childhood, my guess is you were in an environment where…I don’t know the details, and you can share or not, doesn’t really matter. But you probably felt as a kid that you weren’t very safe, right? Somebody raises a voice, dad comes home late, he’s drunk, you don’t know what’s gonna happen, maybe you got hit out of nowhere, or there was this sort of mercurial environment for a child, right?
So then what usually happens is the child feels the absence of security, and then they’re now in this constant state of fight or flight, which would lead to something like Hashimoto’s because now you’re exhausted, you’re constantly on surveillance. It’s a very vigilant mindset which over time becomes very deleterious to your own physiology because you’re actually constantly working to try and overcome the deep-seated fear that you’re not gonna be okay, and that ultimately will wear out your tissues, right, depending on how resilient you are. Someone’s built like an ox, they’ll be able to go longer, someone who’s more fragile body, you know, they’re gonna have diseases at a much younger age.
So that’s what I hear, at least in your story, is that you probably grew up in an environment, and you can confirm it or not, I’m not gonna be offended if I’m not right, but, you know, you would have had some sort of environment that fundamentally as a child left you at times, maybe not all the time, but periodically feeling scared. And so, then you’ve done everything you can as an adult to now try to mitigate that, which of course makes sense, but it’s just exhausting, right? Now cut to Hashimoto’s. So, as a kid, that’s an appropriate response, right? You’re scared, you’re powerless as a child, but as an adult, you keep looking through the same lens, which is what obviously I’m undoing, you know, that becomes a futile way to live life because you’re basically a 30, 40, 50-year-old, but you’re still looking through the lens of a scared 5-year-old. And that’s why people get sick, and their relationships don’t work, and yada, yada, yada.
So with regards to uncertainty…so that’s your personal programming, but as it relates to uncertainty, yeah…One of my favorite teachings and pillars of my work is to recognize that we’re all clueless. Like, the future is unknown, and none of us know what’s gonna happen. Now, that’s absolute, right? That’s not gonna change in a week and we’re like, “Hey, guess what? There’s this like news that just hit the world that all of a sudden we can all figure out what’s going to happen.” That is perpetual, right? If you and I have a chat in a week, we won’t know what’s gonna happen tomorrow. If we have a chat in an hour…sorry, in a year, we won’t know what’s gonna happen tomorrow. If we have a chat in 20 years, we won’t…right? That’s just a part of life.
So once you start to really just understand that and then see the futility of the fact that as an ego-mind, we’re always trying to work out what’s happening, then you realize why you’re so freaking tired. It’s like, “No, but I told you, you don’t know what’s gonna happen.” “Yeah, okay, but I’m gonna spend hours, like, when I’m trying to go to sleep at night trying to figure out what’s gonna happen.” “Right, but I just told you, you can’t.” “Yeah, I know. But I’m still…” Right? You start to see the absolute nonsensical nature of this and why people need to drink so much. But, anyway, so yeah. So I teach uncertainty, and when you become absolutely, like, intimate with that part of life, meaning you fully embrace it and understand it, then that is where you become free.
Katie: I love that concept. And you’re exactly right, there are definitely instances I can think back to my childhood when I felt unsafe. And then I can think of an acute sexual assault in high school that I felt profoundly unsafe. I think that was…
Peter: There you go, yeah.
Katie: …yeah, very, like easy to tie that in. I also love that even in my questions you’ve, like, pulled up certain parts of the language and, like, really honed in on how I said them, like with loss for your parents. And I think this is a really important key. And I’d love to hear more from you on this. I’ve realized this kind of just personally over the last couple of years is we seem very intimately connected to the way we talk to ourselves, and the questions we ask ourselves, and the language that we use, and I think often we’re not even aware of that. It’s like how I said about losing your parents, it’s a pattern, and it’s informed by sympathy or whatever it may be. But talk about how to be more mindful of language and how that has an impact in this realm of our own understanding.
Peter: Yeah, it’s a beautiful question. And again, it’s probably one of the most important parts of my work, which is understanding the power of language, right? Like I said at the beginning, who are we? We’re just a compilation of these, you know, narratives that we’ve developed over time. What are narratives? They’re language, i.e. words. So who people are as walking around is basically a conversation. But for most people, the conversation that they’re walking around is very disempowering. It’s incredibly limiting. So I’m literally at some level, you know, deprogramming people’s constraints and giving them the opportunity to create new language. So, that is fundamentally part of my work.
And we see it even now, like, again, I don’t wanna harp on about what’s going on, but it’s obviously impacting everyone on the planet. You see terms that are thrown around that are sadly intentionally created to push false narratives like an anti-vaxxer, right? Like, there’s no such thing, like that is something that somebody has created, the media with that false narratives to create divisiveness, right? Like, I’m not an anti-vaxxer, as much as I’m like anti-McDonald’s or anti-Coca-Cola, but I don’t consume either, you know, I’m pro-health, right? So you see the importance of language, and how it does define us and the choices we make, how we think, how we feel, and then the actions that we take.
So I’m glad that you could recognize, you know, what I would have said one of my superpowers is listening, right? So hearing the way that you spoke, and it is automated, it becomes a script, right? There’s this just knowingness from the ego that, well, that’s just the way it is. So people are oblivious to the fact that they keep perpetuating the very limitations that they purport to want to be overcoming, not realizing that their language keeps sustaining it. So to the latter part of your question, yeah, you have to start to pay attention to what’s coming out of your mouth. And most people don’t. They’re sort of like just, you know, walking around on autopilot. Its stimulus and response, stimulus and response, stimulus and response. Somebody says something, and then boom, they just come out with their, sort of, scripted reaction without like really investigating, is that actually how I feel now?
You know, and that’s where you can start to truly dismantle the constraints of your own personality when you start to pay attention to what the drivel is that’s coming out of your mouth and wait, why? Why do I say that about myself? Or, why do I say that about my mother-in-law? Like, is that really true that she’s, you know, a son of a whatever? And it’s like, when I say that, then it creates a relationship to her because that’s the way I see her, and then that’s why I get frustrated. But maybe if I got to know her, perhaps she’s just scared, and she feels threatened by me, you know, because her son was her only child, and she felt very close, and now I came into the picture as a woman and married him. And so, she feels like the love that her son used to give her is now being, you know, sort of prioritized towards me. And so, she just feels hurt. So if I understood that dynamic, I’d have more compassion versus judgment. But if I continue to have a dialogue about that person, then I’m stuck in that relationship, not because of them, but because of the way I relate to them. So this is where I undo so many traumatic experiences that people have by virtue of just the way they sustain them and the stories they tell.
Katie: And that alone seems to be a huge key being able to shift to a state of compassion and understanding toward people and realizing, like you said earlier, no one’s judging you but you, but we assume often that they are. It also seems like a lot of these things we’re talking about live in the subconscious largely until we’re aware of them. I know in talk therapy, that’s something that’s often discussed is you’re dealing more with the conscious, and there’s limitations there. And that’s why some people don’t find very much success in just talk therapy because it’s that part that we’re aware of versus the part that’s driving the part that we’re aware of. But I’m curious how you work through, kind of, the constraints of the subconscious and help people get to that awareness?
Peter: No, it’s beautiful that you’re aware of that. And yes, I’ve had people who have been in therapy for two decades and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, and they come for one session, and they’re like, “Wow, I got more out of this like hour-and-a-half than I did for like, you know, hundreds of hours because we went deep down into what’s driving the ‘superficial problems’.” Like, humans are under the impression that they have their issues and their problems, but to me, they’re symptoms of deeper constructs, right? So, the way I work is, again, just through my listening, I’m able to hear where people are basically lying to themselves, doesn’t make them bad people, but they’re saying whatever they’re saying, like even your question asking me about the loss of my parents, it’s not a bad question, and certainly not like in any way, you know, you’re not being derogatory or hostile. It’s just, like, a simple question. But I could help you then all of a sudden see it’s an inaccurate way to phrase it, right?
So I have that capacity when someone comes to me with their anxiety, their depression, their relationship issue, you know, their sickness, whatever it is that they’re dealing with, then I can reverse engineer that and take it back to what’s actually going on, because I’ve delineated what, you know, my assertion are these 10 fundamental prisons that we live in, in the subconscious. So my brain now because I devised the whole formula system of sort of somewhat, you know, wakening beyond these constraints, I can immediately hear in the way someone speaks, whatever their problem is, which one are usually two or three of those primary subconscious constraints is actually driving their life. And that’s where I’ll take it backwards, help them see, “Wow, that started when I was 3, 5, 8,” and then got reinforced, like you said, sexual assault in college, like was just built on top of what you were already feeling. So now you’ve just reinforced that feeling of the absence of security, and then you have the compensation for it. So then I take it back to, “Okay, let’s correlate the events of your life in your childhood, and let’s see that you actually, sort of, triggered that narrative of constraint that is now the foundation for what you’re dealing with today as an adult.” And then we undo that foundation, as I said earlier, by recognizing that it’s not a truth.
Katie: Can you speak more to those 10, like, prisons of the subconscious? Is that what you call them? I know, these are part of your systems, but can you explain more, maybe just give a few examples of what those are?
Peter: I could, but I’m not going to because that’s my book, and I’ve already given you a couple, right, like so not feeling worthy, not feeling safe, you know, like, so, it’s the same mechanism for all of them. They’re just different constraints that we have. So, you know, that’s gonna be part of a really comprehensive course that I’m gonna do for people so that they can go through at their own pace. It’s also overwhelming if somebody would look at all of them. It’s enough for somebody to understand, “Wow, I’ve really lived in this world of not feeling like I’m enough, the lack of worthiness.” I guarantee you not one of your listeners is not gonna be able to, you know, relate to that at some level. They may have transcended it, maybe they’ve matured, they’ve developed a sense of self-confidence over time, they’ve done the work, but for most people, if they’re not in it, they can certainly remember when they were.
Like, even for me, you know, it’s like, I’ve done so much of this, I’ve developed the systems, I’ve been doing my work for, you know, two-plus decades, and I can still remember where the compensation of trying to impress someone, a girlfriend, or a group that I was speaking to was being driven by the feeling of not being enough, right? So, that’s what I’m saying, to me, they’re primal, everyone’s got them. It’s just, like you accurately said, talk therapy, traditional therapy, life coaches, you know, spiritual teachers, they’re really just sort of fluffing around on the top with whatever someone thinks of, you know, their problem is. Like anxiety, it’s like, okay, well, then maybe you should meditate, you know, or do grounding. I mean, I’m not saying that either of those things aren’t good for you, but that’s sort of no different than allopathic medicine, which is why at sick care, they don’t want people to be well, they just want you to keep taking drugs, right? So it’s sort of a quick fix that doesn’t actually get to the root cause of whether it’s, like, physiological or psychological that, you know, is creating somebody’s suffering.
Katie: I’ll make sure there are links as well to your courses and to your works, people can find you and, of course, your book when it comes out. I’ve also seen you talk about the power of imagination, and I’d love for you to elaborate on how that comes into play.
Peter: Yeah, I mean, I think this whole construct really is dependent on imagination. It’s just that most people’s imagination is pretty shitty, right? Like, I mean, and I’m not talking about its capacity, but the content of it, right? So, as I was speaking to earlier, like when someone says, “Oh, this is too good to be true,” or, “This will never happen for me,” both of those statements are imaginative, right? They might have evidence from their history that allows them to feel like that’s the way it is. But it’s not a truth, they’re actually creating that. This is why again, coming back to language, when you declare something, it’s a form of imagination. Like, when you say something, you’re basically creating an existence. Like, even as I was using the example of like the wife and the mother-in-law, it’s like, let’s imagine that she’s, you know, a pain in her ass or whatever, like that…but in her world, that’s a reality. No, that’s an imagined view you have of another human being who’s doing the best they can. I’m not saying that they’re angelic and that they treat you like gold. But, you know, to say that is an imaginative statement. It’s just one that is, unfortunately, gonna create a lot of hostility and, you know, suffering between those two people.
So imagination really is sort of a birthright. Look at kids, right? Like, again, obviously, you’ve got all your teachers in your house there where, you know, they have the most expansive imagination, right, it’s like going to the moon as maybe some sort of really grandiose view of their future, or it’s just being a train driver, you know, it’s like, which to a parent might seem like, you know, a little bit disappointing, but it’s still imagined, right? It’s like, you’re 3, you know, it’s like, you can barely get on a train, let alone drive it, right? But that’s the beauty of, I feel, the human spirit is that we’re naturally curious. And then you’re going back again, tying all these points together, noticing or recognizing the life is uncertain. That is the rich tapestry upon which we get to use our imagination to create something. So, until such time you realize that you are using your imagination to create a life, but unfortunately, for most people, the life they’re creating is a reaction to something they don’t want, so now they’re confined by their history.
When you start to really recognize that your history is your history, it’s done, you’ve reconciled it, let it go, and now start to step into a new construct that realizes the future is a blank canvas, and then be responsible for the way that you use your imagination to create something. Now, to a lot of people that may seem audacious if one said, you know, “I’m gonna be a millionaire by the end of 2022.” Someone said that, you know, they may have no clue how they’re gonna do that. And a lot of their friends might say, “You’re an idiot for even saying that.” And they might start to really doubt themselves. But that is an imagined statement is as real as somebody being worried that they’re gonna be redundant by the end of 2022, right? They’re both imagined, why? Because it’s frickin’ middle of September 2021. I don’t know what the hell is gonna happen tomorrow, right? But you can use your language in a way that is empowering or disempowering. And that’s still imagination. It’s just most people are using their words against their imagination in a way that is sadly disempowering, and just reinforces what their ego wants to be right about.
Katie: I love that you brought up having my best teachers in my house. I’ve always thought of them that way. The vast majority of the people listening are parents. And as you have been saying all of this, I think it probably a lot of us are realizing patterns in our own lives as adults, and probably having a lot of lightbulb moments. It’s been building me to ask you this whole time, for all of us who are parents and who recognize patterns that came from our parents, likely out of love, they didn’t do these things on purpose, how can we be mindful of our language, and our patterns, and our interactions with our children as parents? Because like you said, they come out of the box with amazing imagination and creativity, and openness. How can we help them preserve that and maybe not fall into some of these same patterns?
Peter: It’s a beautiful question. And I can hear, you know, your commitment as a beautiful loving mom. And I love that because I think we need more of that, especially again, in this day and age where kids seem to be a target for, you know, the darker forces out there. So, there’s a couple of things. One, I always use this expression, and it’s not mine, I got it from a yoga teacher friend of mine who was about to be a dad. And so, in anticipation of his wife giving birth, he asked a few of his friends, like, you know, “I’m gonna be a new dad, like, what’s your advice?” And he shared this in a yoga class that I was attending. And he said that his buddy who was a father of two said to him, “Just remember that your kids will rarely succeed at listening to you, but they will always succeed in becoming you.”
And it was, you know, for me, given the way that my mind works and the lens through which I listen, you know, it really just reinforced the fact that we, for the most part, especially as children, we learn by mimicking, and beyond mimicking behavior, we mimic energy. So if a parent is distressed, you know, in a place of suffering, depression, denial, living in a pretense, pretending that the marriage is great when it’s not or, you know, whatever energy the parent is carrying, that child may not consciously understand the behavioral adaptations, but they will adopt the energy so that’s normal, right?
So you look at a lot of the people who sadly are in prison. They aren’t bad people. They just didn’t ever get taught love, kindness, compassion, you know, they were raised by a single parent who was a meth addict. You know, dad was in prison, and their only semblance of communion or community they got was with the local gang. So they weren’t being shown, taught any sense of self-worth from a parent because the parent didn’t have any themselves. And yet, their means of forming a sense of belonging was that they had to sell drugs and perform crime to bring their sense of value to the gang so that they could just hold on to some sense of companionship. So that’s all they learned, right? So that doesn’t make them bad people. It’s incredibly sad, and why I love to help whoever I can and bring compassion to the fact that everyone’s doing the best they can.
But, you know, so for the parents out there, recognize, you know, hopefully, all your listeners aren’t in such, you know, awkward or difficult situations, but who are they in terms of their relationship to themselves? Are they coming from a place of freedom? Are they coming from a place of self-worth? Are they coming from a place of kindness and compassion to themselves doing the best they can? You know, a lot of parents, especially mums, you know, just get such a bad rap. And it’s like, the amount of judgment that a mother particularly will put on themselves, and then the concern for, “Am I doing the right thing?” Or the fact that you just had to quickly go to a drive-thru just to get your kids some food, even though psychologically, you know, it’s not the best food, and then you berate yourself. You know, it’s like, sometimes you just got to do what you got to do and just get rid of like, the overcritical, self-analysis that’s beating the shit out of yourself. So that’s one part.
The other part is just, you know, maintain as much as possible the joy of possibility, right? Like, really encourage kids to think out loud in a way that they’re not thwarted, because so often what happens is a kid will say something that does seem outlandish, it does seem, you know, a little bit unrealistic, and a parent will just shoot it down straight away. And so, rather…it may not even be practical, right? I’m not denying the fact that kids don’t say stuff that is just, you know, preposterous, but don’t shut down them because then they start to lose the energy of possibility. Maybe start to inquire as to how would they do that? Like, “That’s amazing. I love that idea. Like, How do you think you could do that? Like, how could you become that person in the future?” So you allow, you actually fuel their curiosity while simultaneously inviting them to start to become responsible, right? So versus just saying, “No, you can’t do that, that’s not possible,” which is really like just a complete affront to the energy of imagination. Like, be with them, join them, listen, go, you know, “Wow, that sounds cool. Like, did you hear that from someone? Like, do you know how you could do that?” And maybe play the game with them of, like, start to invent, “How could we actually make that happen?”
So really, it’s, point one, you know, as a human, and adult, and a parent, do the work, you know, recognize where you are stuck, and you keep sort of passing on the legacy of inadequacy or insecurity to your children and stop doing that. And then number two, as much as you can, engage the children in the joy of, you know, imagination itself, whilst obviously teaching them the importance of being responsible for the life you created. It’s one thing to have imagination and desires. It’s another thing to actually be in action about it, right? I say a lot of people want things, but you don’t get what you want by just wanting it, you know, you got to get off your ass and do something, right? So that would be what I say, you know, as two primary points for parents out there.
Katie: I love both of those. And I think just as parents do things out of love for their children, in most cases, of course, there are I’m sure exceptions of horrible things that happen, but, and mothers are doing the best they can, like you pointed out, I think similarly, our psyche does what it does to protect us, like, our psyche is not sitting there trying to make us unhappy. So even when these patterns present, it’s actually there for a reason. And I think often, like, we get kind of confused and stuck on the idea of happiness maybe, and I wanted to circle back to this. In that book, can you kind of talk about the nature of true happiness and how that ties in?
Peter: Sure. I mean, it’s a big topic, you know, and happiness is thrown around there with, you know, TED Talks, and books, and all sorts of stuff, and people think they wanna be happy. Again, I look at happiness as, you know, it’s transitory, right? Like, I would look something deeper like, which is real contentment or joy, something’s a little more profound. Happiness to me is much more subjective. Like, you’re happy because somebody said something nice about your outfit or, you know, you want something that’s important to you in terms of sports and you feel happy. But, you know, there’s this very slippery slope where people become so caught up in the world of dualism where it’s like, well, if there’s happiness then just by virtue of the fact that we live in a dualistic construct, there has to be sadness. So if you’re gonna pursue happiness, then you also have to recognize sadness comes with that. But you can’t have nights without, like, day, right? And you can’t have inhale without exhale.
So for me, real happiness is can you transcend both as just simply part of the human experience? I remember years and years ago, “Yoga Journal,” asked me to write an article about the pursuit for eternal happiness. And I’d actually have to find it. It’s been a while since I’ve seen it. But I was saying how the whole thing is redundant and moot and actually impossible because, you know, if you did find “eternal happiness,” then at what point do you no longer know that you’re happy because you haven’t had any kind of reflection through its counterpart, right? Does that make sense? It’s like, you know, if you’re in a state for so long and there’s no perspective, there’s no point of relativity, then you sort of become numb to the experience itself. So, I think happiness is fun. You know, it’s a great part of being human. But I would invite people to make just as much space for sadness.
Like, I always talk about making room for all your emotions, that’s a real happy human being, that’s a joyous…like, yeah, like, God, it hurts, and it’s almost like I enjoy the grief of missing a loved one because I love them so much. But it’s beautiful, like that grief is an extension of love, right? So I don’t wanna deny my capacity to also have what we might think of as more unfavorable emotions, but they are nonetheless there. You know, it’s just when people try to resist them and they only want… “I only one want the good emotions.” I’m like, “All right, well, let me know how that works out.” When I’ve done talks, like someone comes up to me and they say, you know, like, “Oh, yeah, I’m, like, really believing that anything’s possible.” And I’m like, “Yeah, that’s beautiful. You could get cancer next week.” And they’re like, “Wait, what?” I’m like, “Well, you just said, anything’s possible.” “Yeah, yeah, yeah, but that’s not what I meant.” “Oh, all right. So what you meant is that only good things are possible.” I’m like, “Okay, yeah, good luck with that life.”
Katie: That’s another great example of the power of language and the meaning of words, I love when you call those things out.
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And I wanna also make sure I respect your time. Well, this has been lovely and I would love to have you back on at some point. Another question I love to ask for the end of interviews is if there’s a book or a number of books that have had a profound impact on your life? And if so, what they are and why?
Peter: I mean, so many books. I think that’s really been my form of education. There are all these traditional Eastern philosophy books really steeped in true spirituality like gurus that were…not gurus, like, that they have a show on NBC and they can help you put together a really fancy plant or houseplants or something guru. Like, you know, really the spiritual gurus who transcended suffering. So, the one book that comes to mind, it’s funny now that you’re asking because I mentioned it once on a podcast, one of my first ones, and then all of a sudden everyone was writing in like, “Oh my god, like this book is so heavy and difficult.” I’m like, “Yeah, that’s because I previously only recommended it to three people.” Because it’s a tome, you know, it’s a tough read, but I’m gonna answer your question authentically, which is it’s a book called “I am that” by Sri Nisargadatta. And my version is so dogeared. Like, it literally has, just in my own scribbles, probably another book or two in it just by virtue of how much I’ve written inside it, you know, with my own revelations and insights as I was reading it. So I’d say that sort of at the top of the pile. There’s a multitude of other books but, you know, that’s the one that really stands out.
Katie: I love it. That’s a new recommendation on this podcast. I’m gonna order it right now.
Peter: Not for the faint of heart.
Katie: I love it. Most of my education is also from books. I’m excited to delve in. And for people listening, I’m guessing you probably struck a deep chord with a lot of people today. For people who want to keep learning more and to hear more about your approach. Where’s the great starting place?
Peter: Good. Well, I hope so, and I’m always, you know, humbled by the opportunity to share my work on platforms like yours. So thank you for having me on. And I equally am flattered by the people that take time to listen. So thank you, listener. They can find me on Instagram @petercroneofficial, and then my website is just my name petercrone.com, C-R-O-N-E. And then we do have Facebook. I think it’s just Peter Crone – The Mind Architect. So yeah, love for people to jump in, and join us, and follow, and, you know, I tend to put out just content versus selfies. So there’s usually some value in my feed versus like, “Hey, look at me in front of a fancy car or something.” Not my style.
Katie: I’ll put all those links in the show notes for you guys listening while you are driving or exercising, wellnessmama.fm. I also have a recap of our conversation here, so you guys can find Peter and keep learning more. But thank you so much for your time. I know that you’re very busy. And I very much enjoyed this interview. Thank you.
Peter: You’re welcome. Thank you for having me on. And hopefully, now you can be a little bit more at peace as it relates to your environment and not having to control things, which you probably had to learn with six kids anyway.
Katie: They have been my best teachers, absolutely. And, as always, thanks to all of you guys for listening, for sharing your most valuable resources, your time, energy, and attention with us today. We’re both so grateful that you did, and I hope that you will join me again on the next episode of the “Wellness Mama” podcast.
If you’re enjoying these interviews, would you please take two minutes to leave a rating or review on iTunes for me? Doing this helps more people to find the podcast, which means even more moms and families could benefit from the information. I really appreciate your time, and thanks as always for listening.
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